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[探讨]问题6:在摩尔-库仑 模型中 是怎么判定 何时会有塑性变形?何时破坏? [复制链接]

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离线mano

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只看该作者 12楼 发表于: 2007-09-01
This part is from my second post here (为什么说TOTAL STRESS是只适用于ELASTIC ?从哪里可以看出来啊?): cO,ELu  
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"The total stress analysis plasticity occurs as soon as the total stresses reach the failure pPUv8, %  
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criterium while with an effective stresses analysis plasticity occurs when the effective stresses L{K:XiPn  
`ySmzp  
reach the failure criterium. sLE@Cm]k  
/dU-$}>ZI  
The latter is of course more realistic; only the effective stresses determine plasticity, not the water pressures. "  QU/Q5k  
-[cl]H)V  
In M-C model, the plasticity is considered here, no 粘塑性. Rc2|o.'y  
C3Mr)  
引用第8楼daniellb1023于2007-08-31 20:39发表的  : #>m#i1Nu  
还有一个问题,土一般是考虑为PLASTIC?还是粘塑性? -5Qsc/ s&  
为什么说TOTAL STRESS是只适用于ELASTIC ?从哪里可以看出来啊? 6m_whGosi  
谢谢
离线mano

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只看该作者 13楼 发表于: 2007-09-01
引用第9楼ggbbggb于2007-09-01 02:42发表的  : bXoj/zek  
"When comes to Undrianed simulation, the phi is usually very small. So the MC model is not suitble for this condition, for MC is based on frictional material."
1 Why phi is usually very small in undrained simulation?
In undrained condition, the phi normally is zero. The failure line is flat.
2 You say MC model is not suitble for this condition, FOR MC is based on frictional material. TEHN you are telling us that the frictional material is not suitable for undrained condition. I am very confused by this.
You can use MC model for this condition. But it is not good when you use undrained shear strength D*d@<&Bl4<  
because the increase of effective stresses will increase strength.
离线mano

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只看该作者 14楼 发表于: 2007-09-01
When you think about more about how you determine the plastic and failure point and calculate them }PGl8F !  
5KJN](x+  
in drained  and undrained condition or program by yourself. You may know what I talk about. iQpKcBx  
gio'_X  
{.2A+JT,  
引用第10楼ggbbggb于2007-09-01 02:46发表的  : mT\!LpX  
" TCJH^gDt  
Some points you may concern:
1) M-C model, undrained condition, effective stress analysis: _|.q?;C]$  
    In this case, the plasticity can be predicted as usual; Two$wL/  
.......
离线ggbbggb

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只看该作者 15楼 发表于: 2007-09-01
引用第13楼mano于2007-09-01 04:27发表的  : >_h*N H  
,6?L.L  
L}CjC>R!  
1So Phi means the failire phi for total stress? GYYk3\r  
-%"Kxe  
2 I also think MC is not fit for describing the strength in undrained cases. But why does it matter when effective stress increase?
GGbbGGb
离线ggbbggb

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只看该作者 16楼 发表于: 2007-09-01
引用第14楼mano于2007-09-01 04:30发表的  : fQq'_q5  
When you think about more about how you determine the plastic and failure point and calculate them
in drained  and undrained condition or program by yourself. You may know what I talk about.
.......
uqPagt<  
!\.x7N<)0  
ax&,  
you mean sth like " plasticity can be modlled as usual" , Mp9wYM*  
u used "predicted", which confused me very much.
GGbbGGb
离线mano

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只看该作者 17楼 发表于: 2007-09-01
1 So Phi means the failire phi for total stress? $+qJ#0OE$  
pTPWToKh  
Yes, the total stress failure line is flat, the phi is zero. JlJy3L8L  
&=y)C/u  
2 I also think MC is not fit for describing the strength in undrained cases. But why does it matter when effective stress increase? sA=WU(4^  
{H{u[XR[z  
MC is bilinear model, elastic part is linear and then plastic behavior after that.  In the elastic part, the total stress analysis for undrained condition is the same. The plastic part is not good after failure. >QV=q`I  
JSCe86a7<E  
I wonder what else simple model you can use for undrained condition in clay ?  The effective Mohr -Coulomb line is base on C', phi' and effective stress. I mean the strength is controlled by effective stress. And the effective stress increase, the shear strength will increase in real.
离线ggbbggb

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只看该作者 18楼 发表于: 2007-09-01
引用第17楼mano于2007-09-01 06:53发表的  : -:]_DbF  
I mean the strength is controlled by effective stress. And the effective stress increase, the shear strength will increase in real. U 1!6%x  
.......
BMMWP   
9M{z@H/  
I still don't get what this means. H;5FsKIF  
p\T.l <p  
1 What does "the effective stress increase" means? effective sigma-1,2,3 ? or others... @%mJw u  
c+P.o.k;  
2  Let's assume the stuff in 1 increases. How do you know shear strength MUST increase?
GGbbGGb
离线daniellb1023

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只看该作者 19楼 发表于: 2007-09-01
thanks for your reply , but i still have some quaries want to clarify with you:- RJ+i~;-  
A#/O~-O^  
1。plaxis 里面的plastic point 应该就是你说塑性点。我想问,这些点是不是就是接近fail的点?如果run construction sequence的时候,如果不能运行下去,出现错误,是不是说明是这些点fail了?那么请问应该怎么做才可以让你的程序继续运行。或者应该做些什么improvement 工作? 谢谢。 X.^S@3[  
In M-C Model, the plastic start from the failure point (these two start point is the same point). When the soil yield, it failure. But the plastic strain can still be calculated.  Normally, the program still can continue to proceed untill the big strain occur (big crack in some where). #w_cos[I  
`a *_b9  
I can almost understand your point. but may i know the answer for the question i highlighted ? x,)|;HXm  
Yn!)('FdT!  
2。你的帖子里面说,如果是undrain conditioin的soil,从塑性和弹性来说,你建议用effective stress的方法来算。不过一般undrain condition的土都是clay / clayey soil.那么按经验+理论来说,不是一般都作total stress analysis的吗?这样不就是有矛盾之处了吗? WBcnE( zF  
x z5 V.  
You may read my previous posts.  For undrained condition, there are three options in PLAXIS: RE~9L5i5  
Z]U"i1lA  
A) analysis in terms of effective stresses (undrained material with E', v', X)P;UVR0  
c', phi' and psi').    y>4r<Y ZQ  
is the " undrained material" you mentioned is "clay " or also "silt"? because sand should always be drained, unless in special case.  if yes. you suggest to use effective stress analysis for clay/silt? @ Gxnrh6  
(by the way, psi is the value for what? and normally what is the value for typ. soil? )
z  u53mZ  
i|5.DhK}  
NF9fPAF%;  
B) analysis in terms of effective stresses with undrained strength %NH#8#';2  
parameters (undrained material with E', v', but with c_u, phi=0) jhU'UAn  
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compare the parameter between A)&B). seems like only c/c' & phi is different. may i know how to determine what one i should use. I mean how to apply it based on the real case. glk-: #  
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C) analysis in terms of total stresses (material is drained and dry, or non {,V.IDs8[  
porous, E_u, v_u, c_u and phi = 0) M.b1=Y  
:x85:pa  
i can understand why to use this parameter for non-porous material. However, if the material is "drained" , which mean is "sand" or "dry silt/clay". in this case, it is suitable to use total stress analysis? or use effective is better. as the relationship/effert between water and soil in this case may not so.....closed. !h\>[O  
v[-.]b*5A$  
actually , i have seen your this post. and understand that Plaxis can model the soil parameter/properties in such kind of way. However, i have some quaries also, some of questions have listed above. and additional question is: 1. based on my memory. there is a reference book/notes saying/suggesting that if the soil the clay, better to use undrain condition and use total stress analysis (because it is more realitic). am i right? or i misunderstood the reference notes?  and if i input effective stress parameters. is "gama dry " = "gama wet - water density" ?  thanks. -B+Pl*  
oll J#i9  
3。在plaxis运行中,如果你想对改土进行total stress analysis,是不是就是把这个土的parameter都输入undrain的?gama wet 约=gama dry, 输入c/phi? 如果你要对改土进行effective stress analysis,就输入drain的condition? 输入c', phi', gama wet>> gama dry?  Ph{7S43  
(6b*JQ^^  
A),B),C) can answer this question two! )w3?o#@  
dY|~"6d)  
yes.  but may i double check with you something. k&TZ   
1. is about the soil density. which i also wrote in question 2. .x6c.Y.S  
2. from your answer of question2 c). for undrain material, if the material because drain due to some reason (ie: long term effect). you still suggested to input undrain parameters for this soil? or need to change it to drain parameter?
8OV;&Z,x  
R<* c   
J3 Y-d7=|  
Really Thanks, friend. VTM*=5|c   
you already help me a lot.......
离线mano

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只看该作者 20楼 发表于: 2007-09-01
To daniellb1023 NOzAk%s3I  
Suggestion: yf 7Sz$Eq  
pv LA:LW2  
1) Read through the PLAXIS Manual, it explains a lot too! 'r/+z a:2  
A@:h\<  
2)Try to read some books about soil strength or soil mechanics including undrained and drained condition discussion. )uG7 DR  
c;RL<83:  
1。plaxis 里面的plastic point 应该就是你说塑性点。我想问,这些点是不是就是接近fail的点?如果run construction sequence的时候,如果不能运行下去,出现错误,是不是说明是这些点fail了?那么请问应该怎么做才可以让你的程序继续运行。或者应该做些什么improvement 工作? 谢谢。 $C&y-Hnar  
U;PGBoe  
When you run the program, what's the error you meet? )\xDo<@  
06)B<  
1)Numerical error: Check your geometry and some soil parameters (it may be obvious wrong) QB3vp4pBg@  
7IEG%FY T  
2)Interplation error and accurancy: you can increase the tolerate error, desired steps and so on. Check the Manual! [.ya&E)x  
#Qir%\*V  
2。你的帖子里面说,如果是undrain conditioin的soil,从塑性和弹性来说,你建议用effective stress的方法来算。不过一般undrain condition的土都是clay / clayey soil.那么按经验+理论来说,不是一般都作total stress analysis的吗?这样不就是有矛盾之处了吗? yX`5x^wVw  
2b&&3u8  
Total stress analysis for undrained condition is traditional thinking. But when you program, the result is not good.  So far many software use effective stress analysis to deal with this issue(Please check out Manual, it explain that very clear) \Uz7ar#,  
6!QY)H^j9,  
You may read my previous posts.  For undrained condition, there are three options in PLAXIS: F=T};b  
9i^dQV.U=  
A) analysis in terms of effective stresses (undrained material with E', v', /Soc,PjZ  
c', phi' and psi').  ^/"[jq3F  
is the " undrained material" you mentioned is "clay " or also "silt"? because sand should always be drained, unless in special case.  if yes. you suggest to use effective stress analysis for clay/silt? te<lCD6  
(by the way, psi is the value for what? and normally what is the value for typ. soil? ) \ytF@"7  
obRYU|T  
V?yTJJ21X  
B) analysis in terms of effective stresses with undrained strength a;GuFnfn,  
parameters (undrained material with E', v', but with c_u, phi=0) xAZ-_}'tW  
Xyz w.%4c  
compare the parameter between A)&B). seems like only c/c' & phi is different. may i know how to determine what one i should use. I mean how to apply it based on the real case. W UN|,P`b  
)qbjX{GZ7  
C) analysis in terms of total stresses (material is drained and dry, or non V"A*k^}  
porous, E_u, v_u, c_u and phi = 0) ulA||  
?QbxC,& i  
i can understand why to use this parameter for non-porous material. However, if the material is "drained" , which mean is "sand" or "dry silt/clay". in this case, it is suitable to use total stress analysis? or use effective is better. as the relationship/effert between water and soil in this case may not so.....closed. 2kXa  
*_qLLJg  
actually , i have seen your this post. and understand that Plaxis can model the soil parameter/properties in such kind of way. However, i have some quaries also, some of questions have listed above. and additional question is: 1. based on my memory. there is a reference book/notes saying/suggesting that if the soil the clay, better to use undrain condition and use total stress analysis (because it is more realitic). am i right? or i misunderstood the reference notes?  and if i input effective stress parameters. is "gama dry " = "gama wet - water density" ?  thanks. R&v V! d  
:gwM$2vv  
3。在 plaxis运行中,如果你想对改土进行total stress analysis,是不是就是把这个土的parameter都输入undrain的?gama wet 约=gama dry, 输入c/phi? 如果你要对改土进行effective stress analysis,就输入drain的condition? 输入c', phi', gama wet>> gama dry? ktEdbALK  
3RbPc8($Y  
A),B),C) can answer this question two! G (Ky7S Z  
h?D>Dfeg%  
yes.  but may i double check with you something. z\kiYQ6kA  
1. is about the soil density. which i also wrote in question 2. /Wx({N'h$  
U8||)  +  
In MC model, it can not consider soil relative density (Dr). {S$]I)tV  
@ ,9cpaL3  
2. from your answer of question2 c). for undrain material, if the material because drain due to some reason (ie: long term effect). you still suggested to input undrain parameters for this soil? or need to change it to drain parameter? u#Z#NP ~F0  
]cKxYX)J  
If it is long term analysis, it should be drained condition, use drained parameters.
[ 此贴被mano在2007-09-02 07:58重新编辑 ]
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geofem 鲜花 +1 - 2007-09-01
离线daniellb1023

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只看该作者 21楼 发表于: 2007-09-01
"In MC model, it can not consider soil density." \LEU reTn  
;WP%)Z  
what does it mean? the model does not consider soil density? then how the earth pressure come out? the active soil pressure should something like ka*density*H.....if no density...........then.....?!?!
离线mano

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只看该作者 22楼 发表于: 2007-09-02
Sorrry, I mean the MC can not model the relative density (Dr) after compaction effect.
离线daniellb1023

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只看该作者 23楼 发表于: 2007-09-02
may in know what is the value of "gama sat" - "gama wet"..........? T4e-QEH  
(i know it depends on degree of sat/......but i just want to know a general value or experience value) B*AF8wX|  
-"} mmTa*<  
D\LXjEm e.  
thanks
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